Latest Trick

Although it's stillultra-secret, it appears the 1968-vintage NASCAR-truck-arm rear suspension has bit the bullet......Yup, the high-tech, engineer-laden NASCAR Sprint Cup world has discovered a trick.....and one that's been used at every dirt track in America for the past couple decades.Boy, are they on the cutting edge or what? Themovingparts of the rear end, so verbalized by Brad Keslowski and others sounds lke the dirt 4-link system adapted to pavement. Body-roll induces significant rear-steer, increases forward bite, AND loads the right front...decreasing the dumb "aero-push" phenom. What will all those lap-top wielding whiz kids think up next?

Not to worry PKL, just TODAY NASCAR has proclaimed all such gadgetry absolutely legal.

Check it out:

http://espn.go.com/racing/story/_/id/8298960/rear-housing-modifications-legal-nascar-says

Bobby didnt we figure that out in the late 60's on how to steer the rear? It took knocking the rear almost out from under one to see the reality of this (as they call it rear steer) incorrect adaptation of truck arms.

I have the 60's version built and under my car now but this blows my little game out of the water. Now we know what those unusual pieces we been seeing lately are thats been falling out from under those fragile cars.

I remember we had a go of the sidestepping cars here on R/R in talking of the way the cars step out in the turns --o well rockin Robin will soon figure a cure out so Brain boy can yodel in the mike ...

Could Scott Bloomquist, Barry Wright, Mark Richards, etc. etc. and all the dirt guys be the next NASCAR gurus? After all, they essentially invented this technology, adapting parts of the four-link concept from the drag race crowd.

Y'all know that once I get beyond writing news releases to put fannies in seats I'm lost, but is this several year old article from Stock Car Racing Magazine at the link below what you suspension gurus are talking about?

http://www.stockcarracing.com/techarticles/39098_four_link_tips_adv...

That's it Dave. It's an incredible suspension system that operates from body roll and non-parallel suspension linkages. The four-link re-invented and re-popularized dirt racing. On dirt the articulation of the rear axle is extreme, the left side wheel base shortens several inches in each turn......I'd expect the pavementazation of the idea would be much more tame and subtle. But Brad K could see Jimmy J's axle articulating at Indy.

Thanks, Bobby

Just goes to show.....they ain't putting the money .....behind...THE BRAINS, Johnny! Ya'll got it figured out...but all the money in the world isn't going to buy what you guys, have and that would be....Common Sense......Just sayin....

Would that be fun....or what?? I'm in...

In my mind, picturing "Suitcase" Jake Elder looking over Chad Knaus' shoulder and wondering what the heck all that gibberish is Chad is viewing on his screens.

Of course, being the old fogie that I am, I much preferred the days before those ridiculous pit boxes and computers in the pits. Imagine asking Jake to clean a glass dashboard!!

ive always wondered why ya cant run a 4 link...sad really - the CAR OF TOMMOROW still using the old time truck arms..

I've wondered the same, Paul. OMG, those old truck arm systems are ancient and literally have been used since the late 1960's. I think part of the answer, lies in the pavement world's attitude of "superiority"........"we're running asphalt, we're in NASCAR, we know everything, and that makes us better,smarter, more likely to be successful, etc. etc........." And to that end, many pavement racers don't evenknowwhat goes on in the dirt world. The modern dirt late model is, without question, the most technically sophisticated stock car.. period. It does not take a rocket scientist to visualize the 4-link's potential advantage, if if could be adapted to a pavement. Guess the Hendrick group was the only with a clue. and to look outside the (truck arm) box.

i have had the privelege of attending chassis school at rocket chassis . mark richards / steve baker said that if (when- im sure) they could get the front ends of the cars to react like the 4 link rears that the " new car " would make the current latemodels obsolete... i know on our old latemodel rocket we were playing w a z link on the rr..

just still 40 yr old technology....i dunno know...

Paul, I've spent a moment of two thinking about what could be done on the front suspension of a dirt chassis....could a 4-link or some other out of the box idea come into focus? I think so. Sounds like the guys at Rocket are already on the path.

on one of our breaks there were a few of us bsing w stevie baker. the words cantilever suspension were discussed..cant really comment if anything was tried..if anybody can reinvent the wheel ..id bet rocket can..

here is a kit for cantilever system to use with coil overs by evo simple swing arms located behind the axle with horizontal shocks and springs

i remember all the newest things over the years..lol..2 in wheel spacer for lr , pull bars, spring rods, dual damper shocks, z links, combos of above , now 4bar cars,shock behind/in front w dummy shocks , clamped, unclamped..

jbars,straight bars,, damn,,,guess ive been round these dirt cars for decades

Back a few years ago we were experimenting with stuff on the rear on transferring weight when this started happening. Guess we found it out a while ago too. you can just see the bars under the rear.

so ya drop the rod angles to stop the wheelies ?

Its on a three link system worked fine even when it pulled the left front up that car was hooked up on dirt or pavement. It had a Dart motor in here and tons of torque

You just never know what you'll see on our web site,lol...The J2 57 Chevy of one of my old club members, Jake Jacobs running with The 65 Chevelle # 3X3 of my ole Nemesis, Clint Hamilton of Gainesville, Fla. Clint and I had our moments both on the track and in the pits but he was/is a great driver. I'm attaching a photo of the #3X3 and my old modified coupe of a few years back.

Yup I knew what the car had on setup and it fit the thread of things here I saw the car doing just this at Valdosta A few years ago that 3 link will work and work good if its setup right

Speculation in the garage surrounds a rubber bushing that collapses under acceleration. No info to which end of the trailimg arm the bushing is located. I suspect that they are probably using these bushings in the front part of the Truck arms.Sources say there is no regulation of this bushing... yet. ....But a source I have says to thinkBi thermic Rubber. The Material they are using is Heat reactive. It gets warm it behaves a Differant way. There are Materials that when they are Hot Behave one way and cold behave another. The Best one is Water Think about it when Below 32 it is Solid and becomes ICE above 212 it Expands 1600 Times its Normal Volume and has the Pressure to launch Water Heater thru a Roof of a House.

Anyway ... I have a theory. I think the "bushing" is actually a Bithermic Rubber bushinginstalled between the front mounting surface of one or both truck arms and the mounting pads which are welded to the axle tubes. Could result in favorable, progressive rear roll steer and/or increased anti-squat geometry angles both of which would help corner exit traction/speed.

Now that makes a lot of sense there. Technology today is hard to keep up with and this is definitely down sneaky Chads line. He thinks so far out of the box its ridiculous. And to catch a thief you have to kinda play like one if you know what I mean

Wow, this very informative information is blowing me away!! LOL
NASCAR said funny looking front-rear-end stuff is LEGAL!!

Bad Brad saidfunny looking front-rear-end stuff is ILLEGAL!!
Could all these winner's burn-outs at end of race, helped covering up these LEGAL-ILLEGAL activities?? LOL
what do you think?

LEGAL OR ILLEGAL??

The biggest part of this discussion is about has been in use for a LONG time. The inspectors are just getting smarter.

The NASCAR inspectors, if they were aware of the 'new' technology, never divulged anything. Nope, it was Brad, on the radio, at Indy, where the 'movement' was such that Brad could it see it.... at speed. (could thermoplastic bushing compression be significant enough for another driver to observe?) Or, maybe Brad really did not observe anything, but was grandstanding for a rule change against Johnsnon/Knaus. The 48 may not be using the new system on every track, but Indy with its flat 4 corners, or Martinsville (where the 48 is real racy) would be better applications of any rear-steering system, than say, Michigan with its long sweeping turns. After Brad publicized the issue, claiming "components are moving afterthe car has passed tech........"NASCAR made a ruling declaring the mystery suspension "legal"......

Bobby, do you dare describe "legal" that is a powerful word especially in racing ie; NASCAR

changing radio stations?? or maybe adjusting the air conditioning?? No really I think if you will recapture the moment he was turning the blowers off and on that go to each brake independently trying to get a good feel out of the braking and not lock them up or burn them up I think that was Watkins Glenn wasnt it??

yeah but now who are you compairing to each of them in this day and time??

who is on the same shelf as Smokey

who is even in the same room with Bill Sr

We started using a 3 link setup on dirt years ago, I think Barney rubble had them on his flintstone flyer. The first I saw one in action was in the 60s on a quarter mile track. I was chasing T.C Hunt (passing him was not in the stars ) and his car #00 was crooked on the straights but took a step way out as it entered the turn,every time.. Bob Moore remembers that real good.. That 55 chevy ran skewed with the rear hung out to the right and when it was throwed into a turn and power added it would hike up and it was gone.

We put that kinda setup under a 56 using truk arms and rods at different angles and first time out the dang setup would unload and throw you into the fence. You couldnt get it sideways enough to keep it under you. Finally it was set right on the angles and it worked like a charm, until you were hit. I lost a left front spindle from a hit and the front never touched the ground until I slowed . We used that setup from about 66 until the middle 80s when I parked it..

Using the suspension rubber bushing for fore/aft movement has been around for years. The use of an expensiveBithermic Rubber isn't necessary.

The auto companies having been using "Voided " bushings for at least 30+ years in front/rear suspensions. I got involved with this during my work assignment in the vehicle suspension study lab at Michelin Tire in the late 70's.

To improve comfort levels, the suspension bushings are frequently made with an internal "void" in the rubber (meaning no rubber, just a vacant space with no rubber) in the 3 and 9 o'clock positions to allow more suspension compliance (controlled movement) in the fore/aft directions).

The more void, the more movement. The same trick could be used inrear trailing bushings to accomplish a rear steer effect under application or releaseof torque on the rear suspension.

Igot involved with some work with Ford shortly after the 5.0L Ford Mustang went to market to fix a rear axle tramp problem. They used voided bushings in the rear arms which allowed fore/aft movement under standing start torque application. I filled the bushing voids with plasticand the problem was solved, but at the expense of reduced comfort levels, which Ford couldn't live with.

Ford eventually went to a horizontal mounted small torque damper (shock absorber) on each side to cure the problem. The '90 5.0L Mustang I have in my garage has those pieces on it. So, it was used for years.

With comfort levels not being in the equation, this voided bushing could be a great racing chassis "tuning" device while still remaining within the truck arm rear suspension rules. No need to go with 4-links, which I don't think isNASCAR legal.