Saw the new nose for the Cup cars in 2011 a few weeks back and like the looks of it. Does anyone have an opinion? What is the benifit compared to the old nose, drivability or looks? Share yout thoughts.
Bumpertag
Click this picture to enlarge.
It is somewhat of an improvement but these cars just look terrible. NASCAR just does not want any air to get underneath of these machines.
they have been taking to many hints from Hollywood---a nose job will fix all. Heck they need more than a nose job, A face lift or maybe yet---they have successfully replaced a mans face so I know they can reskin it back to what its supposed to be. Heck they can call or even get on TV with Dr Phil.. he puts lives in a different look they say so a car shouldnt be that hard hechk even take Brian with him-------------------------------might help there too
Thinking back a few years when every team would cry and sing the blues about "Oh the Fords get a 1/4" added to their rear spoiler" and "The Chevy teams have an unfair advantage" I'm glad they all use a common template... somewhat. I agree the cars need to look more like the cars from the manufacturers but I don't see that being a possibility in the modern era. Aero is huge and there is no way to equalize it for all teams, and it wouldn't be much of a sport if one manufactuer had a better package. If you ask me aero has nearly killed this sport and it all started when NASCAR tried to "Add a 1/4" here and take a 1/8" there." This is why we have common templates now.
Robbie Solesbee said:
If they would just go back to stock sheet metal a new nose would not be an issue. Plastic noses are for late models.
wouldnt it be nice to see a car that would silhouette a show room car again?? just think you could even tell a Ford from a Dodge or Chevy and Toyota would be a ----------------Toyauto .. You wouldnt need to chase down a program to identify who who in the car business or look for your favorite color. these new wraps they putting on cars now has made a spray gun obsolete now
Bumpertag said:
Thinking back a few years when every team would cry and sing the blues about "Oh the Fords get a 1/4" added to their rear spoiler" and "The Chevy teams have an unfair advantage" I'm glad they all use a common template... somewhat. I agree the cars need to look more like the cars from the manufacturers but I don't see that being a possibility in the modern era. Aero is huge and there is no way to equalize it for all teams, and it wouldn't be much of a sport if one manufactuer had a better package. If you ask me aero has nearly killed this sport and it all started when NASCAR tried to "Add a 1/4" here and take a 1/8" there." This is why we have common templates now.
Robbie Solesbee said:If they would just go back to stock sheet metal a new nose would not be an issue. Plastic noses are for late models.
Not an issue for me. The cars from the manufacturers look like crap to me. The Impala, Charger and Fision are ugly and WOULD NOT make a good racer. The Toyota has better lines and in todays racing they would be the only car winning. Would you rather see that???
There is no way that all manufacturers would or could produce a car that would be nearly equalwithout common templates. Brand indentity is important, but it's not more important than having good racing with all cars being in the hunt.
The days where a Dodge was a Dodge and a Chevy was a Chevy are gone. The sport can survive and grow only if the racing is close and competition is tight. Having one manufacturer dominate would destroy this sport.
Johnny Mallonee said:
wouldnt it be nice to see a car that would silhouette a show room car again?? just think you could even tell a Ford from a Dodge or Chevy and Toyota would be a ----------------Toyauto .. You wouldnt need to chase down a program to identify who who in the car business or look for your favorite color. these new wraps they putting on cars now has made a spray gun obsolete now
Bumpertag said:Thinking back a few years when every team would cry and sing the blues about "Oh the Fords get a 1/4" added to their rear spoiler" and "The Chevy teams have an unfair advantage" I'm glad they all use a common template... somewhat. I agree the cars need to look more like the cars from the manufacturers but I don't see that being a possibility in the modern era. Aero is huge and there is no way to equalize it for all teams, and it wouldn't be much of a sport if one manufactuer had a better package. If you ask me aero has nearly killed this sport and it all started when NASCAR tried to "Add a 1/4" here and take a 1/8" there." This is why we have common templates now.
Robbie Solesbee said:If they would just go back to stock sheet metal a new nose would not be an issue. Plastic noses are for late models.
Bumper I agree with you that aero has damaged the sport and can swallow the common template but they have just went too far with using the plate package at all of the tracks.
Thinking back a few years when every team would cry and sing the blues about "Oh the Fords get a 1/4" added to their rear spoiler" and "The Chevy teams have an unfair advantage" I'm glad they all use a common template... somewhat. I agree the cars need to look more like the cars from the manufacturers but I don't see that being a possibility in the modern era. Aero is huge and there is no way to equalize it for all teams, and it wouldn't be much of a sport if one manufactuer had a better package. If you ask me aero has nearly killed this sport and it all started when NASCAR tried to "Add a 1/4" here and take a 1/8" there." This is why we have common templates now.
Robbie Solesbee said:If they would just go back to stock sheet metal a new nose would not be an issue. Plastic noses are for late models.
Thats quite and rant Jim. I understand many of your points but can't let myself get that worked up. I miss the Good Ol Days but I understand that the sport had to change in order to survive and continue tp grow. I'm not happy with much of what we see in todays NASCAR, but I still love it. If the sport hadn't evolved I honestly don't think we would have seen the huge growth the sport has been blessed with. With growth comes sponsor dollars, with sponsor dollars come technology, and technology brings change. Change is a given and most of the change has been good for the sport. The safety, reliability and increased competition are a byproduct of the good things that have happened in the sport and I'm grateful for this. I don't like the looks of the COT, but I understand how we got here. I enjoy NASCAR today, but it can't measure up to my memories from the 70's. It has changed... but it still has the FLASH and EXCITEMENT that attracted me in 1972. Sure I would love to see a TRUE Chevy, Ford or Dodge be competitive on the track, but I understand that those days are long gone.
"If the sport hadn't evolved I honestly don't think we would have seen the huge growth the sport has been blessed with."
What real growth? The only growth financially has been to NASCAR and some of it's owners. A mid-level team would kill for the money that Gannassi, et al, get from one of those little decals near the rear tire of there cars. They would end up being the primary sponsor on that car. There only seems to have been "competition growth"because each manufacturer has at least one "super-team".
When Jr.Johnson was approached by R.J.Reynolds to sponsor a car, and he found out how much money they had in their budget because they couldn't advertise on TV anymore, he told them they need to sponsor the whole series and sent them to NASCAR. With idea that the money would benefit more teams than just his. You won't see that today. NASCAR is even trying to get the money before teams get a chance at it.
Bill France, Sr.'s way of doing things. If your car ain't fast enough complain to themanufacturer, or change brands. As long as the wheel base was at least 115" long the way it rolled off the assembly line, as X inches high, and X inches long, and X inches wide, and an engine that was no larger than X cubic inches, Then you had a race car.
I agree with the safety advancements, but don't be too quick to give NASCAR all the credit for that. They know a good idea when they steal one.
Built for racing chassis, OK. Body, whatever one your enginemanufacturermakes that fits it (within certain parameters). Templates, of course. Bad aero, talk to the manufacturer, not to the rules maker. Then let's go racing.
Stock Car Racing didn't HAVE to get big. The "improvements" you're talking about is killing the local racing scene. It was special to see a race on TV. It made you kill to want to see one live and in person. And when you couldn't, you were at the local track knowing that if it was on TV it wasn't going to conflict with your Saturday nightpilgrimage to the local bull-ring where the guys you see on TV now, learned ALL the ropes about racing. Not just driving, but not needing an engineer to set-up your car for you. {Unless you were Alan Kulwicki, or Ryan Newman, and went to college yourself.)
Happy Holidays!
Bumpertag said:
Thats quite and rant Jim. I understand many of your points but can't let myself get that worked up. I miss the Good Ol Days but I understand that the sport had to change in order to survive and continue tp grow. I'm not happy with much of what we see in todays NASCAR, but I still love it. If the sport hadn't evolved I honestly don't think we would have seen the huge growth the sport has been blessed with. With growth comes sponsor dollars, with sponsor dollars come technology, and technology brings change. Change is a given and most of the change has been good for the sport. The safety, reliability and increased competition are a byproduct of the good things that have happened in the sport and I'm grateful for this. I don't like the looks of the COT, but I understand how we got here. I enjoy NASCAR today, but it can't measure up to my memories from the 70's. It has changed... but it still has the FLASH and EXCITEMENT that attracted me in 1972. Sure I would love to see a TRUE Chevy, Ford or Dodge be competitive on the track, but I understand that those days are long gone.
The growth I spoke of are the number of fans. Those are the numbers that attract sponsors. The truth is this, the racing today is tighter and the competition is better than it was in the 60's, 70's or 80's. I agree the cars don't look like the cars rolling out of Detroit and I say "THANK GOD!" The cars of today look awful. They don't meet the rules you refer to and the lines are terrible. The current Impala would be a worse car than the Ol Caprice, and we all remember that Ugly thing.
I agree with your thoughts about the Southern 500 and wish it could have been left alone. The date was moved and I hate that it was, but I'm still a fan. As for your thoughts about local tracks, I couldn't care less... thats just me. I hate dirt and always have. I enjoy the saturday night races in Nationwide or Cup and wish there were more. When I was a boy in the 60's and 70's, I dreamed of making it in racing one day. My dreams never led me to Cherokee Speedway. I never wanted that, I wanted NASCAR, and from 1982-1984 I made it and work on a Cup crew and traveled with the team to as many races as possible. I loved it, Ireachedmy dream. My love for this sport isn't limited to only the things I agree with, but the competition and the excitement of the races. The rules and changes you speak of does not limit the excitement that can be seen on any given weekend. I work with many fans of Dale Sr and I'mdisappointed by the number of them that lost interest in NASCAR when Dale died and haven't watched afull race since.They're Dale fans, Not NASCAR fans. I am a NASCAR fan.
I wish the cars looked like the cars of my memories, but bodies change and NASCAR tried to change with them. Over time the speeds grew, improvement were made and little by little we end up with the rules of today. Deal with it, either watch the races and be a fan or turn them off. I prefer to watch and cheerfor for the teams and drivers of today, but remember and cherish the past.
Dennis Schalm said:
"If the sport hadn't evolved I honestly don't think we would have seen the huge growth the sport has been blessed with."
What real growth? The only growth financially has been to NASCAR and some of it's owners. A mid-level team would kill for the money that Gannassi, et al, get from one of those little decals near the rear tire of there cars. They would end up being the primary sponsor on that car. There only seems to have been "competition growth"because each manufacturer has at least one "super-team".
When Jr.Johnson was approached by R.J.Reynolds to sponsor a car, and he found out how much money they had in their budget because they couldn't advertise on TV anymore, he told them they need to sponsor the whole series and sent them to NASCAR. With idea that the money would benefit more teams than just his. You won't see that today. NASCAR is even trying to get the money before teams get a chance at it.
Bill France, Sr.'s way of doing things. If your car ain't fast enough complain to themanufacturer, or change brands. As long as the wheel base was at least 115" long the way it rolled off the assembly line, as X inches high, and X inches long, and X inches wide, and an engine that was no larger than X cubic inches, Then you had a race car.
I agree with the safety advancements, but don't be too quick to give NASCAR all the credit for that. They know a good idea when they steal one.
Built for racing chassis, OK. Body, whatever one your enginemanufacturermakes that fits it (within certain parameters). Templates, of course. Bad aero, talk to the manufacturer, not to the rules maker. Then let's go racing.
Stock Car Racing didn't HAVE to get big. The "improvements" you're talking about is killing the local racing scene. It was special to see a race on TV. It made you kill to want to see one live and in person. And when you couldn't, you were at the local track knowing that if it was on TV it wasn't going to conflict with your Saturday nightpilgrimage to the local bull-ring where the guys you see on TV now, learned ALL the ropes about racing. Not just driving, but not needing an engineer to set-up your car for you. {Unless you were Alan Kulwicki, or Ryan Newman, and went to college yourself.)
Happy Holidays!
Bumpertag said:Thats quite and rant Jim. I understand many of your points but can't let myself get that worked up. I miss the Good Ol Days but I understand that the sport had to change in order to survive and continue tp grow. I'm not happy with much of what we see in todays NASCAR, but I still love it. If the sport hadn't evolved I honestly don't think we would have seen the huge growth the sport has been blessed with. With growth comes sponsor dollars, with sponsor dollars come technology, and technology brings change. Change is a given and most of the change has been good for the sport. The safety, reliability and increased competition are a byproduct of the good things that have happened in the sport and I'm grateful for this. I don't like the looks of the COT, but I understand how we got here. I enjoy NASCAR today, but it can't measure up to my memories from the 70's. It has changed... but it still has the FLASH and EXCITEMENT that attracted me in 1972. Sure I would love to see a TRUE Chevy, Ford or Dodge be competitive on the track, but I understand that those days are long gone.
I am not a NASCAR fan. I am a stock car racing fan. NASCAR IS hurting stock car racing. And they claim to be THE National Association for STOCK CAR AUTO RACING.
Local doesn't mean dirt.
Never mentioned the Southern 500.
If done right, like Bill France Sr. did, number of fans,affordabilityto race, making a living (if you choose to try), all, like water, would find its own level. The sport, as a business, really hasn't advanced that much since Big Bill ran NASCAR. He built Talladega, and nothing has matched the scope of that achievement in actually advancing the sport as a consumer product, it has treaded water.
As far as the size of the car reference, like I said that is what Bill Sr. did at the time. Of course in this day and age thedimensionswould need to be different. But my example is still valid.
Competitiontoday is manufactured by NASCAR, not the competitors. Those are the innovators. You can't tell someone who issuccessful at their job how they should do it. They've done the job. THEY are the expert. You ask THEM how it should be done. You wouldn't want or expect someone from an office job to tell the craftsman on the floor how they should be doing their job. When NASCAR was run for the sake of the sport, if you won by fifteen laps like Ned Jarrett did once, you earned it. If you won a championship by sawing apart a perfectly good race car to get half a roll cage to get your car back in a race, like Benny Parsons team (team mind you), you earned it.There is nothing wrong with runawaysuccess if you earn it. Petty Ent. was hailed as legends, Jr. Johnson, Richard Childress, also. Why? They earned it.
I do not speak from an uneducated source. From childhood, I sold programs at the local track, worked the safety crew, flagged races there, did some PA announcing, raced my own cars and for others. Then I moved on also, full time crew member on an ARCA team that everyone still had regular jobs, became a spotter for that team, and rented myself out to others, from 1/4 milers to Talladega. Became a full time ARCA Racing Series official working my way up to be one of the starters, to be on the accident investigation team (like I said, NASCAR knows a good idea when they steal one.), member of the rules committee, did some TV color on a couple of broadcasts, and yes a part-time NASCAR official.
Having experienced it all, like the late Johnny Hayes of US Tobacco and TNT broadcasts years ago said, while comparing the haulers and equipment between the ARCA and NASCAR garages at Pocono, ". . . running the same race track, with the same type of car, at the same speeds, with the same competitiveness, makes you wonder, who got it right?"
If you experience half of this and are a student of the sport at all levels, and paying some attention to other forms of motorsports, you thenrealize the slight change of a nose piece, doesn't amount to a hill of beans.
By the way, go to Foxsports.com, to the NASCAR main page, and watch the video of Darrell Waltrip talking about his first cup race in his family's own '71 Mercury. That's my side of the equation. It still could have been like that. You could REACH your dream. Not just keep dreaming it.
Oh yeah, you ain't lived until you seen thirty-six, 850 HP, 3,400 lb., cup twins of stock cars, dive off into the first turn of a one-mile fairgrounds dirt track, like Springfield, or DuQuoin Illinois. Just ask Ken Schrader, Tony Stewart, Andy Petree, Justin Allgier, etc., etc.
It definitely looks better than the old nose and ugly splitter braces it had, but it's still a generic facia with headlight and grill stickers to differentiate each manufacturer. When NASCAR adopt the body style that is used on the new Nationwide car, having a unique front-end for each manufacturer's model to match the stock dimensions, just like the old days, that will be something.
I'm beginning to wish I had never ask the question. Seems we started out talking about the new nose for 2011 and ended up criticizing everything NASCAR has done in the last 20 years. I'm open minded enough to see and understand how this sport has ended up with the rules we have today, and that the sport had to change. Staying as it was in 1973 was not an option.
I know I'm not alone when I say I'm looking forward to 2011. For the rest of the true NASCAR Stock Car Racing fans I say, "Let Go Racing Boys and Girls!".
Thanks Wally.
Wally Bell said:
You are Not Alone!
Let's Go Racin' !!!
( new nose looks good to me BTW)
Bumpertag said:I'm beginning to wish I had never ask the question. Seems we started out talking about the new nose for 2011 and ended up criticizing everything NASCAR has done in the last 20 years. I'm open minded enough to see and understand how this sport has ended up with the rules we have today, and that the sport had to change. Staying as it was in 1973 was not an option.
I know I'm not alone when I say I'm looking forward to 2011. For the rest of the true NASCAR Stock Car Racing fans I say, "Let Go Racing Boys and Girls!".
I helped establish, y'all helped expand, I don't want to have anything to do with disposing.
John Craft said:
The first generation establishes; the second generation expands and the third generation disposes.
Merry Christmas & Happy New Year
How many fans remenber the days when NASCAR changed the size and height of the front and rear spoilors because of the crying some teams did? Help the Ford teams by cutting rear spoilor height and raising the front air dam on the Chevys and Pontiacs. Then in a few weeks they would reverse and favor a different make. It was ridiculous. I hated that era much more that the rules we have today. Looking at some of the cars in that day it's no wonder NASCAR did what they did because the cars lines were so different. The slope nose Monte Carlo and Grand Prix vs the boxy Thunderbird. They had to do something in an effort to level the competition. This is what led to common templates. To say that the lesser competitive should switch makes in order to be competitive is foolish. The fans wouldnot show up to watch the GM Cup.
Wally, I'm with you... It's all good if you choose to look for the good. I'm really looking forward to the start of the 2011 season.
And in the early 80's GM cried about the new "round" T-bird. The one Buddy Baker cried about having to race against what amounted to ASA car, as he put it. What happened? NASCAR said, sorry, complain to GM to make better cars that fit the rules. The birth of the Monte Carlo SS and the Grand Prix 2+2. Stock carsremaining "stock". The only reason there was complaining about the spoilers in the era you mentioned was because NASCAR took away the crew chief's option of adjusting the angle as a tuning device. When you have options on the angle, the height becomes less of an issue.
BTW, you started this by asking for opinions of a NASCAR mandated part. Left this sucker open to go in practically any direction it wanted.
I'm done . . . off my soap box . . .
We now return you to your regularly scheduled forum . . .
I agree with much you stated. The comment about removing the crew chiefs option to lay the spoiler down was all done to reduce speed and improve safety... I can't conplain about that. I think NASCAR messed up when they allowed the cars to become too aero dependent and slick. The greatest racing was in the 70's with the bigger boxiercars when mechanical handling was the key. Great drivers, more reliable engines and tires and a smart crew chief could find a little more if he had to. I loved it!
Dennis Schalm said:
And in the early 80's GM cried about the new "round" T-bird. The one Buddy Baker cried about having to race against what amounted to ASA car, as he put it. What happened? NASCAR said, sorry, complain to GM to make better cars that fit the rules. The birth of the Monte Carlo SS and the Grand Prix 2+2. Stock carsremaining "stock". The only reason there was complaining about the spoilers in the era you mentioned was because NASCAR took away the crew chief's option of adjusting the angle as a tuning device. When you have options on the angle, the height becomes less of an issue.
BTW, you started this by asking for opinions of a NASCAR mandated part. Left this sucker open to go in practically any direction it wanted.
I'm done . . . off my soap box . . .
We now return you to your regularly scheduled forum . . .
Will NASCAR ever find the "Magic Bullet" that will satisfy both the long time fan as well as the newbies that follow the sport? Is it possible? Will we ever be truely happy with the product on the track?
Forget Stock Bodies, thats a thiong of the past.
The bullet is right in front of them. Take the AERO out of these cars, put more weight in them (200 lbs) was taken out several years ago and take some horspower out of the engines with fuel injection.
Visually the cars are just palin ugly because of the AERO treatment and this package takes emphasis away from mechanical grip leaning toward AERO grip.
Bumpertag said:
Will NASCAR ever find the "Magic Bullet" that will satisfy both the long time fan as well as the newbies that follow the sport? Is it possible? Will we ever be truely happy with the product on the track?
Forget Stock Bodies, thats a thiong of the past.
I don't want weight added, that will have too much effect on the tires. I'm a little iffie on the fuel injection but it will be part of the sport and I will have to adjust. I agree the cars of today are very ugly, but so are the cars coming from the manufacturers. I'm hoping the rumors of the Pony Cars coming to Cup in 2013 are true. But even if they do, the aero package will follow much like in the nationwide Series. I wish there was a way to eliminate the grip that aero has on this sport today.
Richard Guido said:
The bullet is right in front of them. Take the AERO out of these cars, put more weight in them (200 lbs) was taken out several years ago and take some horspower out of the engines with fuel injection.
Visaully the cars are just palin ugly because of the AERO treatment and this package takes emphasis away from mechanical grip leaning toward AERO grip.
Bumpertag said:Will NASCAR ever find the "Magic Bullet" that will satisfy both the long time fan as well as the newbies that follow the sport? Is it possible? Will we ever be truely happy with the product on the track?
Forget Stock Bodies, thats a thiong of the past.
There is a way to do it. NASCAR is concerned about the cars lifting off on the Supers.So they put the package on the cars.The drivers and tires can handle the weight. Part of NASCAR's problem wasconceding to teams and drivers desires in years past. An extra200 lb will slow them down a bit and after all the big boys were running 3,700 lb cars for years with no complaints. What gives ?
It is simple. Add weight, take away usable horspower and loose the AERO. Cut them loose.
Bumpertag said:
I don't want weight added, that will have too much effect on the tires. I'm a little iffie on the fuel injection but it will be part of the sport and I will have to adjust. I agree the cars of today are very ugly, but so are the cars coming from the manufacturers. I'm hoping the rumors of the Pony Cars coming to Cup in 2013 are true. But even if they do, the aero package will follow much like in the nationwide Series. I wish there was a way to eliminate the grip that aero has on this sport today.
Richard Guido said:
The bullet is right in front of them. Take the AERO out of these cars, put more weight in them (200 lbs) was taken out several years ago and take some horspower out of the engines with fuel injection.
Visaully the cars are just palin ugly because of the AERO treatment and this package takes emphasis away from mechanical grip leaning toward AERO grip.
Bumpertag said:Will NASCAR ever find the "Magic Bullet" that will satisfy both the long time fan as well as the newbies that follow the sport? Is it possible? Will we ever be truely happy with the product on the track?
Forget Stock Bodies, thats a thiong of the past.
