Bobby Allison's 85th race win in question?

racing-reference,Bobby Allison,and sometimes NASCAR of Fame listed
85 NASCAR Sprint Cup wins for Bobby Allison.
http://www.racing-reference.info/driver/Bobby_Allison

Bill France Jr. and Darrell Waltrip listed
84 NASCAR Sprint Cup wins for Bobby Allison and Darrell Waltrip.

Last night on Speed Channel's Speed Center was talking about Bobby Allison going into the NASCAR of Fame, Monday, May 23,2011, I noticed they listed:
Bobby Allison
2011 NASCAR of Fame Inductee
83 Career Wins, 1983 Cup Champion (2 photos)


85th race win in question?
1971 Myers Brothers 250
NASCAR Winston Cup race number 34 of 48
August 6, 1971 at Bowman-Gray Stadium, Winston-Salem, NC
250 laps on a .250 mile paved track (62.5 miles)
http://www.racing-reference.info/race/1971_Myers_Brothers_250/W
updated by @dennis-garrett: 12/05/16 04:02:07PM

A tricky one there. I could be wrong but the race was originally considered a NASCAR Grand American event but years later NASCAR changed it to a Grand National event. Someone here surely has the answer.

IT would not be an error if NASCAR has it listed as a Grand National win even if it wasoriginallya GA event.

There is an error in the books that I am almost sure of. Richard Petty's win at Texas in 1972 was his first in a Dodge Charger but the winning car is listed as a Plymouth.

I heard Bobby explain that the win was in a Grand American race but it was a NASCAR sanctioned race. I think the car was something small like a Camaro, Mustang or Javlin, something that didn't allow it to be added to his total wins in NASCAR.

Here's what I found:

1971 Myers Brothers 250

The 1971 Myers Brothers 250 was held August 6, 1971 at Bowman Gray Stadium in Winston-Salem, North Carolina. The first car to cross the finish line after 250 laps was driven by Bobby Allison.

The dispute in question came because of early 1970s combination races for the smaller Grand American Series, featuring " pony cars ", such as the Chevrolet Camaro , Ford Mustang , and AMC Javelin , as well as the Grand National Series, featuring the Chevrolet Chevelle , Ford Torino Talladega , Dodge Charger Daytona , and Plymouth Roadrunner Superbird . For that race, and the race following at West Virginia International Speedway, Allison raced a Grand National - Grand American combination race in a Grand American Series specification 1970 Ford Mustang, #49, sponsored by Rollins Leasing, and owned by Melvin Joseph. (Joseph was the head of Dover International Speedway until his death in 2005.) As he was not racing in a Grand National car, he never received credit in that series, but was credited with a Grand American Series ("pony" cars) win.

So then racing reference has it wrong compared to official records. Where can you find officialNASCAR records on line ?

Pkl said:

This thing has been bouncing back and forth for years. The problem, as usual, is with NASCAR. The race WAS a sanctioned NASCAR Grand National race, but for whatever reason, they let both Grand National and Grand Am cars participate. Bobby was driving a mustang and won the race.

Only after the race, did NASCAR decide that they didn't want a Grand Am car as the winner of a Grand National race, so the win was conveniently "not counted." To the best of my knowledge, the "official" stats now list Bobby as the winner, but his winning record has never been changed from 84 to 85 wins, so he remains tied with Darrell Waltrip on the NASCAR win list.

It would only be right, tonight when he is inducted into the Hall of Fame, if NASCAR changed the errant record and acknowledged Bobby as the third most winning driver in NASCAR history.

But...right and NASCAR are not always compatible, so I doubt it will ever happen. Three cheers for Bobby!!!

Amen there PK. Remember that back then in the rule book was also the E.I.R.I. Rule! Also always remember, we want you here but play by our rules or find someplace else to race. No politics involved there! (large slow rolling of eyes noted with a wink).

No worries Patty, I offer no opinion on your statement. Just curious about the shake out. But if racing reference properly credits Bobby with the win for that event and his career totals then should not Richard;s career total be dropped to 199 on racing reference ? Is racing reference considered official ? Evidently not. Indeed there seems to be no official NASCAR record book available prior to 1972. Rather I am confused ....LOL I recall this argument coming up several years ago.

One can imagine many disputed races back in the day when scoring was done by hand or other means if you know what I mean. Great stuff Pkl.

PkL said:

No Richard, that is not what I said at all. Racing Reference has it RIGHT! It was definitely that one race at Bowman Gray that is the culprit, and Bobby definitely won it. nascar.com conveniently forgets about everything before 1972...or 1975, depending on their mood or time of the month. They don't even have a listing for anything farther back than that...as though Big Bill never existed and the rest of us are crazy.

There is a large book in print called "The NASCAR Encyclopedia", which was co-authored by Peter Golenbock and Greg Fielden. There is an entire unit explaining what happened in that race, and neither of those two august gentlemen can explain it either. For a long time, NASCAR just said that Bobby didn't win because he drove a Mustang...but THEY welcomed that car and several others into the race! (Short fields even back then, I guess)

If you look at the race, you'll see that 7 out of the top ten finishers were Grand Am cars. Funniest part of that is wondering how they managed to cram Tiny Lund into a Camaro. (Shoe horn?)

The race now "officially" shows Bobby as the winner, but his win total has never been officially changed. Take a look at the second place finisher, in a Plymouth (Grand National car) and you'll see what I suspect is the reason why. If someone gains one "officially", then someone else would have to lose one, "officially." Second place and originally declared race winner was Richard Petty. Apparently, NASCAR isn't prepared to take one away from the King, even if he didn't really win it.

It's really just the way it's always been. It's their bat, their ball and their game, so they get to make the rules.

Richard Guido said:

So then racing reference has it wrong compared to official records. Where can you find officialNASCAR records on line ?

Pkl said:

This thing has been bouncing back and forth for years. The problem, as usual, is with NASCAR. The race WAS a sanctioned NASCAR Grand National race, but for whatever reason, they let both Grand National and Grand Am cars participate. Bobby was driving a mustang and won the race.

Only after the race, did NASCAR decide that they didn't want a Grand Am car as the winner of a Grand National race, so the win was conveniently "not counted." To the best of my knowledge, the "official" stats now list Bobby as the winner, but his winning record has never been changed from 84 to 85 wins, so he remains tied with Darrell Waltrip on the NASCAR win list.

It would only be right, tonight when he is inducted into the Hall of Fame, if NASCAR changed the errant record and acknowledged Bobby as the third most winning driver in NASCAR history.

But...right and NASCAR are not always compatible, so I doubt it will ever happen. Three cheers for Bobby!!!

If I'm not mistaken...to make this even more confusing for the general observer...didn't they (NASCAR) count one or more of Tiny Lund's wins while driving a Grand American car? Seems like I may have Bobby Explaining this in one of our archived interviews.

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Founder/Creator - RacersReunion®

Ok, folks, consider this. SPEED, ESPN, and everyone currently involved in race broadcasting spend countless hours touting Kyle Busch has having 97 NASCAR wins, counting down until he passes Pearson. On that note, how in the world can they deny Bobby that other win. And, Jeff, you are correct. NASCAR credited Tiny with at least 2 of the Grand American wins in his Grand National total. Bobby deserves to have the record made right andlast night would have been the most opportune time to have done that.

Tim

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What a change! It's been awhile since I've checked in and I'm quite surprised. It may take me awhile to figure it our but first look it's really great.