Age old discussion, to date who is the best to ever sit in the seat of a race car.....

As my weekend friends stop by the old shop fora cold drink, the talk seems to come around to who was thebest to ever drive a race car.

In no certian order my thoughts always go out to The King, AJ Foyt, Al Unser, Bobby Allison, Red Farmer, Ramo Stott, the list goes on. Notice that Dale SR. is never on my list. It isnot that I don't respect all the he did but for the younger fan he is the only one they know.

The guys that could go from sprinters to stock cars and win in both will always rank high on my list.

Now I really fire up my buddies when I tell them that if a few drivers had not have died way to early Dale Sr. would just be a driver crashing a bunch and running 15th.

What if Robbie Moroso, Davey Allision, Allan K, Richie Panch, Adam Petty, Tim Richmond, Tim Steele, Neil Bonnett, and others could have reached theirplace in racing.

Another big one would be what if Bobby Allision and Jr. Johnson could have stayed together for 15 years---records would have been set that no one could touch. Or had Bobby stayed with Holman Moody.

These topics always lead to several cold beverages, lots of swearing, and a few old guys having a walk through history.

Mike Ashley

Well as you call greatest why not add Tony Stewart,he has drove every kind of car in american series and won the championship in more than most even know about. what say you???

Oh yes Tony would be there...also Richie Evans, Bentley Warren, might even have to put Geoff Bodine on that list. What about Ray Hedrick?

Ray never won in Silver Crown or midgets or even Karts. Now im looking at the big picture, not just the N. East

your right. Mario might have to get on the list also. He won in lots of different types of cars.

Hey go to facebook, check out Charles Red Farmer he has some real neat old photos there. Plus a picture of his new dirt car just finished in June. He still races every Sat night.

Very few have ventured where Tony has in cars maybe Mario could be included too

Boy it is a shame we don't live closer together. You would enjoy and add a bunch to the sessions. You would need to like rib eye steaks with baked taters or a rack of BBQ ribs with iced tea or beverages with twist off caps. Most evenings the stuff gets real deep.

You will have to make it to Middle Ga for the next reunion then

We do a lot of sea food down here on the coast (thats actually See Food ) what we really do .. Anything southern is good

And nothing like hotdogs and burgers or BBq at a dirt track --thats where t5he true taste comes from grit is for your craw too.

Now to get to a real driver why dont you ask the question of who is the greatest all around on dirt--that takes in a many different cars and venues

I am in Rome GA so I would love to come down to Byron. I ran a 200 lapper there in 73 or 74 maybe 75 finished 5th don't remember who won maybe Jody. I do know Pete Hamilton finished in the top 5 also.

Im looking back through my photos of MGR --hunting you down you got a photo of your car ?

Curtis Turner111

Listing only drivers who I saw race in stock cars. I always remember Barney Hall asking David Pearson doing color on the first Cardinal 500 Modified MRN Radio broadcast from Martinsville how long it would take Ray Hendrick to be a big winner in Cup if he decided to go that route. David's answer, "Long enough to strap in." Ray won a lot of races outside the northeast, Johnny. Multiple Charlotte 300s, Talladega, and had a Daytona Permatex race won until Junie Donlavey's pit crew was beaten on the final stop by the Pettys pitting Joe Millikan.

Stock cars:

Ray Hendrick

David Pearson

Curtis Turner

Dale Earnhardt

Richard Petty

Tony was terrible in the Busch Series. One of the worst drivers I ever saw in that series to be running good equipment. From 1996-1998 he ran 36 races in Busch with no wins and just 5 top-5.

Ok Define Race car. Is it only the stock cars we all love? the full bodied cars? or is it race cars in general IE; Sprint cars-- Silver Crown,World of outlaw series,winged sprints? Or formula 1 or championship cars? or just Modifieds as in Mudbus and open wheel coups and later purpose built bodies. A lot of great drivers dominated each of those series but to my recollection only a couple won big in all aspects of those listed above and others too. Tony and Mario. but who am I to know,there are great minds on SCRR so step up and be served .

If we are talking about stock cars three come to mind. Curtis Turner, Jim Paschal, Red Byron. If all divisons are in cluded then A.J. Foyt and Tim Richmond, and Bobby Allison.

Mike do you think Bobby Allison and Jr Johnson could have set records if they could have stayed together?

YES YES. Jr had told me over breakfast more than once had he and Bobby stayed together bobby would have been in the cat bird seat as reining cup champion many times over. I tend to agree with Jr, But Bobby had other ideas. Even Bobby has said that was one move that he has regretted looking back at history. It takes a big man to say that he has made a mistake and yet doesn't blame anyone but himself.

The reason I replyed so quickly, "Curtis Turner" was I was on the track with him many times at Raleigh Speedway. You might notice I didn't say "raced", because if you tried to race him you would end up in the gaurd rail. In my old age (84) every so often I have a Night Mare. One of the dominent one is hearing Curtis' 180 degree crank engine pulling up behind me, I knew pull over and let him by!

Just gonna throw my two cents in here...but this list is 100 percent incomplete without a Cale Yarborough mention.

Johnny, I will concur that Mr. Stewart looks great on dirt, in the IRL and his Cup championships speak volumes. I did have occasion to watch him in person in both USAC Midgets and USAC Silver Crown cars on asphalt at RIR. He wrecked out every time and didn't look very sharp

Johnny, I was gonna ask Mama to give ya a geography lesson last Saturday, but she looked pretty busy. Knowing that you are deep down in the heart of the peanut and peach state, I wanted to advise in our discussion of Ray Hendrick and your mention of northeast wins that the bulk of Ray's wins came in Virginia, generally acknowledged as a mid-Atlantic state ( and often as a South Atlantic state along with Georgia ), at Southside, South Boston, Martinsville, Langley Field and Old Dominion Speedways. Many wins were also recorded at Beltsville in the mid-Atlantic state of Maryland.

Ray's home base of Richmond was the Capital of the Confederacy and the cars for much of his success were fielded out of tobacco country in Littleton, NC decidedly southern. While Ray, Jack Tant, and Clayton Mitchell graciously accepted big money from promoters in Connecticut, Massachusetts, New York and New Jersey to go "up nawth" and "clean their clock" as Ray put it, he was also the man to beat anytime he showed up at Trico/Orange County in Rougemont, NC and Cumberland International in Fayetteville, NC.

Besides all his wins in various Champions races at Trenton, Langhorne and Pocono, it doesn't take many digits on one hand to count how many drivers racing the best of the best at Martinsville, ever won a 250-lap NASCAR National Championship Modified race and then immediately stepped into a NASCAR Late Model Sportsman car and beat 40 different fresh drivers in another 250-lap race.

And that is the end of our Geography 101 course for today!

I love it...Keep up the education classes for me....I don't remember Ray ever coming into Alabama and getting a win. Things were pretty tuff in Birmingham, Huntsville and Montgomery.

Did Ray ever run the Snowball Derby?

He is one of my all time favorites....Mike Ashley

Bobby Allison on occasion came up to Richmond and stayed at the home of Southside Speedway owner, JM Wilkinson back in the early 60s. He and Donnie both won the season ending Virginia 400 NASCAR National Championship Modified race at Southside.

Here is a photo of Bobby standing by his modified at Richmond's Southside Speedway in 1960 from Bobby's web site.

I don't know of Ray ever running the Snowball Derby. Ray was 61 when he died in 1990 and many of his biggest wins came in his 40s when he was only showing up at big money events that were paying him deal money to show.

Bobby Allison coming to Southside
Published: April 22, 2008
From press release

Many great drivers over the last fifty years have come to Chesterfield, VA to try and tame The Toughest Short Track in the South, but none any greater than Bobby Allison. The NASCAR legend and leader of the Alabama Gang is coming back to Southside Speedway on Thursday, May 1, 2008 as the Grand Marshall of the Denny Hamlin 175.

The 1983 Winston Cup Champion frequently made trips to the .333 mile oval throughout the 60s and 70s. Allison would travel from his Hueytown, AL home to various short tracks throughout the south and win wherever hed go. He has started over 2,400 races and won an astounding 717 times.

When he came to Southside, he would stay with the founder and owner of the speedway, J.M. Wilkinson. I ran there quite a bit early on and Mr. Wilkinson just became a special friend early on. He was one of those people who really promoted races well and we struck up a friendship, said Allison. Wilkinson was the father of the current speedway owners Sue Clements and Patsy Stargardt. They are excited to bring back one of NASCARs legends to help them celebrate 50 seasons of racing in Chesterfield.

Allisons racing credentials are among the best ever. His 85 victories in the NASCAR Winston Cup (Sprint Cup) rank him third all-time. He is a three-time Daytona 500 winner and a seven-time NASCAR Most Popular Driver. Allison was also the leader of the famed Alabama Gang from Hueytown, AL. Bobby; brother, Donnie; Neil Bonnett; and Red Farmer formed a super group that would dominate the short tracks and super-speedways throughout the south for years.

Although Bobby hasnt been behind the wheel of a race car for several years, the winning continued for the Alabama Gang this year with 76 year old, Red Farmer winning the season opener on March 9, 2008 at the Talladega Short Track.

Allison will join an all-star line-up that includes 2006 Sprint Cup, Rookie of the Year, Denny Hamlin; his Joe Gibbs Racing teammate and 2005 Sprint Cup, Rookie of the Year, Kyle Busch; and two-time, Southside Speedway track champion and Denny Hamlins spotter, Curtis Markham. Tickets for the race will be on sale at the speedway on Friday, April 25, 2008 at 3:00pm and again on race day, May 1, 2008 at 3:00 p.m.

Tickets are $20.00 for adults, $10.00 for children 7-12, and free to children 6 and under.

A portion of the nights proceeds will benefit the Denny Hamlin Foundation.

Jim, Somehow I dont see you pulling over for anybody. lol....I know I have been very careful when I could hear the 180 degree crank motor of Pat McNear's 71 camaro coming up behind my old modified coupe when we would have to run together for car count... I thanked him several times for having a unique sound as a signal to ease over and let him go.

Allow me to indulge for just a moment...

Ray Hendrick's 3 big superspeedway LMS wins came at the ages of 46, 47 and 48.

My favorite and I was there was the first of his two consecutive World Service Life 300 victories at Charlotte on October 4, 1975 at 46 years of age - that's right - age 46 when he outfoxed all the young whippersnappers. That day he finished ahead of fellows named Bonnett from Alabama in 2nd, Bobby Allison form Alabama/Florida in 3rd, Sam Sommers from Georgia in 4th, North Carolinians Jack Ingram and Dale Earnhardt in 5th & 6th, Maryland's Jack Bland in 7th, fellow Richmonder , "Terrible Tommy" Tommy Ellis in 8th, South Carolinian Charlie Blanton in 9th and Cup regular Dick Brooks in 10th. Further back in the field you'll find names like Waltrip, Shepherd, Gant, Houston, Hutchins, Ottinger, two Utsmans, etc.

When the race was over, Ray didn't even look like he'd broken a sweat, but a young 29 year old Neil Bonnett was jumping up and down, yelling, screaming, pissing and moaning that the 46 year old Hendrick had blocked him from passing all day in the race in which Hendrick led 138 laps. It was a funny moment when a grizzled old veteran who many had written off beat all the young lions and made them look really bad. It was just worse when he beat them all again the next year at age 47 and then did them in at Talladega at age 48 for good measure!

World Service Life 300

NASCAR Late Model Sportsman race
Charlotte Motor Speedway, Charlotte, NC
October 4, 1975
200 laps on 1.5 mile paved oval; 300 miles

Fin St Driver # Owner Car Laps Money Status Laps Led
1 4 Ray Hendrick Chevrolet Chevelle 200 20,300 running 138
2 10 Neil Bonnett Chevrolet 200 10,575 running 20
3 13 Bobby Allison Chevrolet Monte Carlo 199 6,550 running 4
4 11 Sam Sommers Chevrolet 197 4,200 running 0
5 5 Jack Ingram Chevrolet Chevelle 197 4,125 running 13
6 12 Dale Earnhardt Chevrolet Chevelle 197 3,200 running 0
7 20 Jack Bland Chevrolet Chevelle 197 2,700 running 0
8 18 Tommy Ellis Chevrolet Chevelle 197 2,500 running 0
9 32 Charlie Blanton Chevrolet Nova 197 2,300 running 0
10 7 Dick Brooks Ford 196 2,150 running 0
11 35 Connie Saylor Chevrolet Chevelle 193 1,950 running 0
12 38 Chet Williams Chevrolet 187 1,850 running 0
13 22 Gene Morgan Chevrolet 187 1,750 running 0
14 33 Junior Crouch Mercury 184 1,650 running 0
15 14 Alton Jones Ford 182 1,450 running 0
16 1 L.D. Ottinger 1972 Chevrolet Monte Carlo 174 3,945 accident 21
17 6 Tommy Houston Chevrolet Chevelle 173 1,220 accident 0
18 29 Ron Bouchard Chevrolet Chevelle 167 1,145 running 0
19 19 Darrell Bryant Chevrolet Chevelle 166 1,070 transmission 0
20 15 Morgan Shepherd Mercury 159 1,120 engine 7
21 16 Don Miller Chevrolet 156 970 differential 0
22 34 Benny Kerley Ford 146 945 engine 0
23 26 Harry Gant Chevrolet Chevelle 133 1,020 engine 0
24 25 Joey Michaels Chevrolet 133 895 clutch 0
25 3 Darrell Waltrip Chevrolet 127 1,070 engine 0
26 21 Larry Utsman Chevrolet 116 845 rocker arm 0
27 23 Johnny Allen Ford 86 820 valve 0
28 8 Sonny Hutchins Chevrolet 85 645 engine 0
29 17 Sonny Easley Ford 85 770 running 0
30 36 Joe Falk Mercury 72 745 engine 0
31 37 Francis Affleck Mercury 64 720 overheating 0
32 30 Harry Jefferson Ford 63 705 engine 0
33 40 Clyde Peoples Chevrolet Chevelle 59 680 overheating 0
34 39 John A. Utsman Ford 42 675 engine 0
35 31 Bob Jarvis Chevrolet Chevelle 42 660 engine 0
36 24 Brad Teague Chevrolet Chevelle 32 645 engine 0
37 28 Phil Gibson Chevrolet Chevelle 30 680 accident 0
38 9 Larry Schild Chevrolet 19 665 accident 0
39 29 Jimmy Means Chevrolet 11 675 engine 0
40 2 Joe Millikan Dodge 7 985 engine 0

Time of race: 02:32:36
Average Speed: 117.955 MPH
Pole Speed: 34.11 seconds
8 cautions for 41 laps
Attendance: 40,000

See if any of you recognize the slim fellow in the Silver Crown car with Tony Stewart painted on it at Richmond in 1995.

The opening to this telecast is terrific, showing the Offy Champ cars on the dirt at Richmond in 1948, as well as The King on the dirt in the solid blue Plymouth. Great stuff!

The Silver Fox!

Mario Andretti, AJ Foyt and Tony Stewart (He has 8 sprint car wins so far this year). Keep an eye on Kyle Larson in the future. He is of the same mold. He has won in an asphalt late model, a NASCAR K&N East car, finished 10th in his first Truck race and has won in midgets, non-wing sprints and winged sprints.

For me, it is definitely Mario without a doubt, for his versatility. He not only won races and championships in the same cars as Foyt and Stewart but also took it to a whole another level by winning races and a championship in Formula 1.

Mike, here is a photo of Ray Hendrick posted at Kilbey Racing that claims to have been taken at Huntsville in the mid-70s. Never having been to Huntsville, I don't recognize the grandstands. Anybody know if this is in fact Huntsville? The sponsor on Ray's familiar Tant/Mitchell #11 is the Chevy dealership in Emporia, Va. owned by Elliott and Hermie Sadler's family.

If my memory serves me right didnt he win a championship in silver crown cars??

and you also refer to the alabama gang wondering north --well yeah they did and Bobby,Donnie and Red brought home a fair share of trophys and money from up yonder.

And yeah I know where that line is drawn but if you get down in the true south like where the carolinas and south (thats where it all really started you know) not to many venture to these parts --even the snowball derby was designed to encourage some competition.

And that map, was that for deliverly of spring water by area code or something??? Jr delivered across that line a few times and said it was a ways to go for the buck..

This could very well be Huntsville. The flag stand and guard rail look right. With out being able to see the press box that sat in the middle of the bleachers, (bleachers were concrete just like the picture), I say lets go with this is Huntsville Alabama.

Thanks, Mike

Looks as though this is taking the path of superspeedway drivers only-- so i guess the greatest driver among them would be,and this will probably get a lot of feedback , Bobby Allison. Look where he came from driving what ever came along and winning. on dirt or on pavement he racked up a winning list that was enormous. Grand National, Bush cars, sportsman and modified.I wont go elsewhere because it is only speedway cars you are talking about...

Johnny, I thought you'd never wake up. Please be advised that I was raised on grits and country ham in Richmond, married a Carolina girl and my dad once resided in Columbia and Lake City, SC! Surely, that makes me part Southern??!!

Tell ya what. A couple of the coldest nights I ever spent weren't up nawth, but over at New Smyrna in February during the World Series of Asphalt Stock Car Racing. I recall there being 55 gallon drums all over the infield with fires trying to generate a little heat.

As for me, I'll take a stock car on a dirt track any day over all the superspeedways in the world. And, I don't mean those wedge looking things. I mean '55 Chevys and '64 Chevelles and '37 Chevys.

My favorite drivers and most of y'alls could wheel 'em on dirt and asphalt.

Haven't we been blessed to have had so many great drivers, including many that most of us have never even seen?

Dave, So very well put. We have been blessed with a bunch of good ole boy's that can really make a car respond. I have seen a ton of the name drivers both in the South and in New York and they ALL could drive the hell outta those cars. I remember one night at New Smyrna in Feb. about 10 years ago when I regretted having an open face helmet. My old modified might have only been doing 80-90 mph but with no windshield I swear my eye balls froze. Please lets add the 57 chevy's too.

For goodness' sake, we MUST add the '57 Chevy, first car I ever owned. Wish I could afford one today!

I watched the documentary on Ayrton on the Documentary channel several weeks ago. I highly recommend it to anyone who has the chance to see it. Great stuff.

so now we are using formula 1 as a platform to arrive with the best driver?? So Nascar is out along with Championship and sports cars right? no sprint cars or midgets . or not even a dirt track race------------------------------see where this is going???

you got to define the meaning before the solution is found..

Now, remember, Johnny.... 'twas PattyKay who sailed us across the pond, lol!

But, so long as we are there, I have always wished I could have seen the magnificent Argentine driver, Juan Manuel Fangio .

To this day, many knowledgeable Formula One historians still consider him to be the best to have ever driven in that series. His Formula One career didn't even begin until he was the ripe old age of 39 in 1950. Through his retirement at age 47 in 1958, he won an astounding 24 of 51 races, still the best winning percentage in Formula One history at over 47%! His 5 World Championships came with FOUR different teams!!

And I'll also throw Jimmy Clark's name into the ring. Everybody talks of Jim Clark's Formula One exploits and his 1965 win at Indianapolis. Few remember that he first came to our side of the pond from Scotland in 1963 , never having been on an oval track, and entered three USAC events. He won Milwaukee , finished second at Indy and won the pole at both Trenton and Milwaukee. Pretty amazing for a driver who'd never been on an oval!

One of the most exciting days of my life occurred in September 1965, the day before the Capital City 300 in Richmond. Ned Jarrett's sponsor, Richmond Ford Motor Co. had Ned's #11 1965 Southern 500 winning Ford and Jim Clark's 1965 Indy 500 winning Lotus side-by-side in their Broad Street showroom. I could roll that little green & yellow Lotus with one finger. In 1967, I was one of the fortunate 53,000 to ever see Clark run a NASCAR stock car race, when Holman-Moody put him in a car for the American 500 at Rockingham.

And who knows what Hershel McGrif f would have accomplished had he decided to race full time. After winning the first Mexican Road race in 1950, Bill France tried his best to get Hershel to run NASCAR full time. But, Hershel had his lumber business and ran only once or twice a year in Cup except for 1954 when he started 24 races and won four of those while taking the pole at 5.

One of those 1954 wins was at a little place named Macon, Georgia and another at North Wilkesboro, North Carolin a , besides his wins at Charlotte and San Mateo. One can only imagine what he'd have done.

I always wished, too, that I could have seen Ted Horn - for sentimental reasons. The 1946, 1947 and 1948 AAA Champion won the very first Champ car race on our "new" 1/2-dirt Richmond track in October 1946 after racing moved from the old mile dirt track.

Most of all, you know what I really wish???

I wish I could have seen our own RR members like you and Tommie Clinard, and Jeff and Legend and Rex and all of the others in their prime on the track. I'd love to make it to one of the vintage races and see Bopper and Jim Wilmore and the others.

It is so much more fun at the track when you know somebody out there and can pull for them because they're your friend, buddy or acquaintance.

Wow great responce. Now that Patty and Dave went across the pond we have opened up a whole new world. I wish I could add a comment to the greats from the other side but in my limited world I have not kept up with those racers.

One thing I have noticed from all who weighed in on my question is that Darrell Waltrip's name has not come up. In spite of his mouth the boy could drive, he may not fit into any of our top ten list, but in his day he could get the job done. I race the old NASCAR LMS division aginist him for many years, did not like him but he could drive. Mike Ashley

I love it. You are right if anyone wants to know how good ole DW was just ask him....

One of my sincerest regrets was that I was not in attendance when Langley Speedway promoter Joe Carver (later DW's business manager) staged a 3-car Late Model Sportsman match race between DW, Ray Hendrick, and Sonny Hutchins.

DW finished third of the three behind Ray and Sonny. DW always called Sonny the dirtiest driver he ever raced, as did Dale Earnhardt, in good fun. Years later at RIR, Sonny told Dale after he took DW out in the February 1986 Cup race that he'd learned all those dirty driving tricks pretty well and they had a heck of a laugh!

Mike... this is a little excerpt from Sonny Hutchins' obituary story in 2005 in the Richmond paper:

Though he made only 38 starts in NASCAR's premier series, Sonny Hutchins had many fierce battles with Cup champions such as Richard Petty, Dale Earnhardt and Darrell Waltrip.

In an interview last year, Mr. Hutchins re- called his favorite part of racing was "showing up at someone else's racetrack and beating them." He said with a devilish grin that Waltrip called him "the dirtiest driver he ever knew" after trumping the three-time champion at a Tennessee short track.

He also had a few run-ins in the mid-1970s with Earnhardt, infuriating "The Intimidator" by bumping him into the wall at back-to-back Late Model races at Richmond and Martinsville. The seven-time champion hadn't forgotten when they crossed paths again in 1990.

"I walked by and said, 'Who's the dirtiest driver you know now?'" Mr. Hutchins said, "Earnhardt said, 'Well, look at the teacher I had.'"

I had my run in's with Jaws back in the 70's Rough was not the true answer for him he was like a man on a hunt. Dale loaned him a car one time and when he finished that race he had bent all 4 corners on the car and the top was buckeled. As he says Oh by the way he finished dead last.. Anybody remember the track??

DW always looked like a fish out of water the few times he showed up at our 1/3-mile asphalt Southside Speedway. He didn't fare very well. On the other hand, Bobby Allison showed up and won several times.

Now, Johnny, are you gonna make us wait till somebody guesses the track where Jaws tore up Dale's stuff?

Thats to simple where he tore up so much equipment learning--- N A S H V I L L E it was a sportsman car too 71 or 72 I think

Thanks, Johnny.